Mountain Fan 
Ubique Epoque
Registration Date: 10-09-2003
Posts: 14,224
Location: NC, Alive and Kicking, BOBD
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 Church - A Love Hate Relationship |
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It seems we live in a time where even the elect are being deceived. My personal experience is that it has been really hard to find a good church, where people seem real and where they say they "love you and they mean it". Also, where it doesn't seem that it's so "easy for you" to everyone else. I feel like I do "small great things" at best. Etc etc. Maybe this is part of the reason why I connect so well with TST's music?
Do any of you care to share any of your experiences without being too specific? It seems hard to find true Christianity in action anymore. What a shame.
I don't want this to be a slam on any particular denominations or groups as a whole. It seems there are "good" churches that stand out in all types of denominations. I grew up in a typical Baptist church, attended Assemblies of God after I got saved after a few years of straying, attended a Pentecostal Holiness (a lot like AG), and am now at an inter-denominational church that has a basically AG Pastor's statement of faith. Before we settled down this time I was quite surprised to find a lot of great Presbyterian folks going to a couple of churches in the area (I even met one at a Dogs show a couple of hours away from our hometown!).
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03-03-2004 11:56 |
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voxrob
Sublime Brain Puppet
Registration Date: 09-02-2003
Posts: 87
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| RE: Church - A Love Hate Relationship |
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Well, yeah, I have felt that way more times than I can count -- and many times coming to the point of thinking (and occasionally saying) "why bother". Finding a church where one can "get fed" or thinks is "right on" (i.e., they agree with my interpretations) or where the people are "real" can be a never-ending cycle of disaster that completely feeds our own self-centeredness and pride that attempts to evaluate others (and, at worst, judge them). Real Church is a place where one can go to become united with Christ. And as is the case with the Christian world, when one is united with Christ, one is also united with everyone else who is united with Christ. Maybe our neighbors and brothers and sisters are lacking in some ways because we have not done enough ourselves to help. This is what great saints have generally believed -- they are not only guilty of sins that they've committed but they feel they are also guilty of the sins of people around them -- like Christ, they take on those sins as if it were their own. And maybe we would all be better off doing the same.
If one wants to get "fed", this is the time of year to do it. It's Great Lent, try to find a copy of the Great Canon of St Andrew and pray -- don't read -- that. It's a good attitude adjuster which is probably why I was doing better last week than this.
Regards,
Rob Stevenson
This post has been edited 1 time(s), it was last edited by voxrob: 03-05-2004 18:31.
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03-05-2004 18:30 |
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sprinklerhead
Ceremonial Kernel
Registration Date: 12-11-2003
Posts: 1,290
Location: Austin, TX
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To paraphrase JFK - Ask not what your church can do for you but what you can do for your church.
I'm starting to wonder if that is my problem. I think I am expecting too much from my church. I need to participate more instead of being just a spectator.
__________________
I had another dream about lions at the door
They weren't half as frightening as they were before
But I'm thinking about eternity
And I'm wondering where the lions are...
I'm wondering where the lions are...
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03-05-2004 21:40 |
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carl
Platyhelminth
Registration Date: 03-15-2002
Posts: 6,960
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Check out Dorfsmith's Angels thread he recently started in the Non-General Discussion (or whatever it's called) section, and a whole lot of stuff in The Argument Dump (but be sure to bring yr hip boots and yr thick skin before entering THAT zone). You'll find a lot of kindred spirits here.
I've been in good churches (recently) and bad churches (before that). And I still get frustrated with things/people at times. ("You, Carl? Nawwwwwwww...." 
) The best advice I can give is to be real and to find a place you can do that as much as possible (because no place will be perfect). Which requires you to take risks. You can't keep it to yrself if you really want to experience fellowship. Some people will disappoint you, but just as many will surprise you.
Bearing in mind I probably would have said something much different 10+ years ago....
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03-03-2004 12:10 |
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jiminy
Tallowy Tamale
Registration Date: 11-16-2002
Posts: 9,494
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sounds like our backgrounds are not too far off. I grew up catholic- went to a holiness church (UPC) through my 20s and 30s, and then to A of G or E/Free related- though I've rather been unsettled the past few years.
I think we may all have personal reasons for "where we are at" churchwise- I love gathering places and feeling and sharing the grace and Spirit of our Lord- just not sure if thats always at one place week to week -know what I mean?
there was a day when I'd say to folks- "What, No Home Church? Are you backslid, lost, or WHAT!!?!?. Wheres your commitment- yer backbone!?"
Well- thats obviously changed, and I've choked on a few crow feathers for that bit o' stink.
I DO believe in fellowship- and sharing , and "leaning" as it were - and even the ol book o' Heb. COMMAND about "not forsaking the assembling of yourselves..."
I aint forsakin it- just on a mmmaajjoorr sabbatical.
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jiMinY
theres nothing to EVER put here that will please everyone-let alone anyone.
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03-03-2004 12:20 |
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DrDanAmos
Dignified Lazar
Registration Date: 09-06-2003
Posts: 79
Location: Kansas City
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| quote: |
Originally posted by jiminy
sounds like our backgrounds are not too far off. I grew up catholic- went to a holiness church (UPC) through my 20s and 30s, and then to A of G or E/Free related- though I've rather been unsettled the past few years.
I think we may all have personal reasons for "where we are at" churchwise- I love gathering places and feeling and sharing the grace and Spirit of our Lord- just not sure if thats always at one place week to week -know what I mean?
there was a day when I'd say to folks- "What, No Home Church? Are you backslid, lost, or WHAT!!?!?. Wheres your commitment- yer backbone!?"
Well- thats obviously changed, and I've choked on a few crow feathers for that bit o' stink.
I DO believe in fellowship- and sharing , and "leaning" as it were - and even the ol book o' Heb. COMMAND about "not forsaking the assembling of yourselves..."
I aint forsakin it- just on a mmmaajjoorr sabbatical. |
I am a former UPC member as well. For me, it wasn't about backsliding or anything like that that made me leave (though I know my spirituality suffered after I left, don't get me wrong, I am making no excuses here for anything). The UPC church I came into was just awesome. It had to be one of the best churches I had the opportunity to attend, and I think the pastor was truly led of God and was a good man. One example I can use is we rented out a Weslyan building for our Sunday services. Well, I guess they didn't like us there because they decided to jack up the rent on us, and our small congregation just could not make it work. My pastor was told he owed them such and such an amount and he was determined to pay a different amount in the rent due, which was less than they were owed. He asked the congregation to pray about it, and we did, and the entire time I prayed, I felt a scripture come to me about if somebody asks you for your coat, you give them your shirt too. That was REAL strong in my mind as I prayed. After the prayer service, all the congregation said they felt it was fine to pay the lowest amount he was willing to pay, including his wife. I declined my comment at the time because I felt, well, maybe I was mistaken in what I felt to be from God. But it bothered me and after the service i told him about what I felt when we prayed. I discovered later, completely by accident, that he did pay the lower amount, but also gave them an additional check, which was for half the amount additional that they were asking for. It was all he could afford to pay the Weslyans. So, yeah, there are really good churces out there, and this was one of them, for sure.
And I also felt really fed there. There were a couple of examples of times sermons my pastor gave were so dead on, so specific to my situation, and covered things he could never possibly know about. One such case was when I was witnessing to a neighbor, and I invited him to church. He agreed to go, and on a Sunday morning we were walking to church and he kept on asking me all these random questions about God and the Bible, deep stuff I could not even begin to answer for him. When we got to church and the sermon started, my pastor said he had a message all prepared but felt in prayer to go in a different direction and started to answer EVERY question my friend had just asked me in our walk to Church. That can only be God. There is no credit any man can take in something so awesome, so amazing.
So why don't I go to church anymore? Because there has been no church in any area I've moved to that has been that good, really, and where I currently live, I truly felt the pastor and some of the congregation members didn't want me to go there. I could go into greater detail, but in many ways I feel like Joseph who was put into bonds by his own brothers. And since then, the church I started out in closed down and I have no idea how to get in contact with my former pastor, though I would like to contact him because there are some great things I would like to share with him.
The only place I've found who has teachings that really touch me is the Trinity Organization out of Dallas Texas, which is pastored by Ole Anthony. I can download his Bible studies online and the stuff he covers is pretty solid, I feel, and good stuff to grow on. In the meantime, I just wait and pray to God to lead me to the Church He wants me to go to. I know in these last days, it's important to have that fellowship of believers, and I want that, but the churches I've seen are so watered down, and I just cannot go. There are other UPC churces I've checked out (including the one that I felt didn't welcome me into their midst) that just fall short of the mark. I could go into more details on that, but this thread isn't about dogging other religions. But it's good to see this thread and know I am not alone in my feelings. I guess Moses wasn't the only one who wandered in the desert for quite a while.
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03-06-2004 14:27 |
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audiori
Administrator
Registration Date: 03-12-2002
Posts: 11,145
Location: Missouri
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I've been to a few different types of Churches over the years,
and I have similar conclusions as you in the sense that there
are good ones and off base ones in every denomination.
I currently attend the Church I grew up in, and of course there
are believers there who don't live it, but thats anywhere.
Actually, I think there are a lot of people who link being Churchy
to living it. Living Christianity is to me not the same as just attending
Church services. But a lot of people in todays culture think it is.
I get irritated at the Church I attend if I take my focus off why
I am there and start focusing on what other people are doing.
Thats a difficult thing to separate. I am not saying, that if you
attend an off base Church to stick it out and try to keep your
focus. But, for me even in a good Church there are distractions.
There will always be the people there that volunteer to teach
or sing or whatever as their way of being in the limelight. There
will always be the ones there that 'live it' on Sundays and not
the rest of the week. It really irritates me when those people
insinuate that you are not as spiritual as they, when you are
being real....if that makes sense.
I would say find one that has good fellowship and good teaching,
the things you need, and do your best to keep your focus on that.
That advice might not be anywhere near what you're looking for,
but it's all I have from my experience along the same lines.
And it's what i have had to deal with for a while.
jason
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"Blessed is he who expecteth nothing, for he shall enjoy everything" -St. Francis of Assisi
"A strange fanaticism fills our time: the fanatical hatred of morality, especially of Christian morality." - GK Chesterton
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03-03-2004 12:47 |
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DwDunphy
Ceremonial Kernel
Registration Date: 08-18-2003
Posts: 1,817
Location: Red Bank, New Jersey
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I haven't been a part of a physical church in years. I know I should find one, as my walk in faith could sure use the support sometimes. The problem is that many churches are so focused on the afterlife that they don't help anyone down here. The almost cultish deathwatch hardly seems right to me.
Neither do the social climbers; you know the ones. Churches that always seem to want to expand and get bigger when, sometimes, it is obvious that God has placed them where they are for a reason. It's the "too big for your britches" syndrome. Whenever a pastor starts mentioning extra love offerings for "a new, bigger home for us", I get antsy. When he starts inserting architectural ambitions into his sermons, I start looking for the door, and if you think a pastor hasn't used his pulpit in such a shameless, obvious manner, you've deceived yourself.
I wish you the best in finding a "faith-home" and hope I'll find one too... But know that it's hard for all of us.
DwD
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03-03-2004 13:02 |
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carl
Platyhelminth
Registration Date: 03-15-2002
Posts: 6,960
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If you don't mind driving an hour and a half, I'VE got a couple you can try....
(seriously, too bad y'r not a little farther south, or I'd recommend King of Kings in Manahawkin or one of its various church plants.... I'd like to visit down there just to see it... sounds like God's doing some cool stuff down there....)
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03-03-2004 13:07 |
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Pfiagra
A Hot Wolly
Registration Date: 04-26-2002
Posts: 408
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For those of you who are disenfranchised with your local churches and are seeking more of an honest environment to grow in the Lord, I recommend that you check out TheOoze.com
It was started a few years back by Spencer Burke, a former pastor of mine from my old church. You can check out his webpage here . He's also author of Making Sense of Church
I encourage you to check it out because I think it will resonate with some of you DA/TST fans.
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"Lord, beer me strength"
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03-03-2004 13:39 |
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carl
Platyhelminth
Registration Date: 03-15-2002
Posts: 6,960
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Pretty cool site. A bit slow, but I liked "THREE STRANDS OF EMERGENT THINKING ABOUT CHURCH" by Paul Fromont; and pretty much anything by Richard Foster resonates with me (so once I can get it to come up I bet this will too)....
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03-03-2004 13:52 |
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™
Woolly Eggwhisk
Registration Date: 03-13-2002
Posts: 734
Location: Silicon Valley: prime real estate for a terrorist dirty bomb hit
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Philip Yancey's thing has been to point out how his faith survived "church".
The back cover of Soul Survivor is a good example:
"Every writer has one main theme, a spoor that he or she keeps sniffing around, tracking, following to it's source. If I had to define my own theme, it would be that of a person who absorbed some of the worst the church had to offer, yet still landed in the loving arms of God.
What allowed me to ransom a personal faith from the damaging effects of religion? The people profiled in this book go a long way toward answering that question."
1. Martin Luther King, Jr.
2. G. K. Chesterton
3. Dr. Paul Brand
4. Dr. Robert Coles
5. Leo Tolstoy and Feodor Dostoevsky
6. Mahatma Gandhi
7. Dr. C. Everett Koop
8. John Donne
9. Annie Dillard
10. Frederick Buechner
11. Shusaku Endo
12. Henri Nouwen
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"He described once that the most evil creation ever
visited upon mankind was the internal combustion engine."
--Peter Jackson quoting J. R. R. Tolkien
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03-04-2004 03:13 |
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Mountain Fan
Ubique Epoque
Registration Date: 10-09-2003
Posts: 14,224
Location: NC, Alive and Kicking, BOBD
Thread Starter 
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Thanks for mentioning these resources, also the ooze above. I think these will help us.
Thanks also for some of the different perspectives and honesty. The Angels thread in the off-topic discussion area was pretty good too.
I also hoped to hear maybe some of you top favorite lyrics related to the church subject (my biggest reason for posting in the DA general discussion area)... But that's OK, I'm sure we would quickly clog things up and then I may have missed some of this good info!
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03-04-2004 08:32 |
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Mark
Moderator
Registration Date: 03-18-2002
Posts: 9,525
Location: Grand Encephalon - Words have their place but live what you say God can have His way when you hit them with Love
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Well going to a Catholic Church you know it will basically be the same no matter where in the country you are. The main difference you will notice is the personality of the priest. You may have some that are charismatic and good speakers or you may end up with some that could put you to sleep. But you do know that the teaching should be the same in any Catholic Church.
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But never, never pin your whole faith on any human being: not if he is the best and wisest in the whole world. - C.S. Lewis
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03-04-2004 07:59 |
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carl
Platyhelminth
Registration Date: 03-15-2002
Posts: 6,960
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03-04-2004 11:34 |
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jiminy
Tallowy Tamale
Registration Date: 11-16-2002
Posts: 9,494
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Point well made, Mark
Our Catholic Brothers are consistent everywhere in the nation-
watch out if you attend mass in ,say, Honduras - jk.
there is much comfort in knowing what to expect (so to speak) when worshipping God-
I used to cringe at some of the pentecostal services of the past-
(specially when I brought a friend)
Lord- will THAT be the topic, tonight- or is it going to be a Holy Roll evening- you know
"the leg of the lady next to me grew several inches longer" type thing......
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jiMinY
theres nothing to EVER put here that will please everyone-let alone anyone.
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03-04-2004 08:44 |
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sprinklerhead
Ceremonial Kernel
Registration Date: 12-11-2003
Posts: 1,290
Location: Austin, TX
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| quote: |
Originally posted by jiminy
I used to cringe at some of the pentecostal services of the past-
(specially when I brought a friend)
Lord- will THAT be the topic, tonight- or is it going to be a Holy Roll evening- you know
"the leg of the lady next to me grew several inches longer" type thing...... |
I can understand reservations when bringing friends to something like this. However, if the lady's leg did grow longer while you were sitting next to her I don't think your friend would have a hard time believing in the power of God.
I, for one, am tired of just talking about God. Jesus said that we would do the things he did. Well, why aren't we? All this talk about God gets tiring and leads few people to Him. Look at how fast things spread in the early church. They were doing the stuff of Jesus. I want to be a part of that.
__________________
I had another dream about lions at the door
They weren't half as frightening as they were before
But I'm thinking about eternity
And I'm wondering where the lions are...
I'm wondering where the lions are...
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03-04-2004 10:15 |
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dorfsmith
Grand Encephalon
Registration Date: 03-24-2002
Posts: 28,142
Location: Everybody needs a persicom
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http://www.google.com
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03-04-2004 11:48 |
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Squidzit
Platyhelminth
Registration Date: 05-14-2003
Posts: 6,235
Location: Be the change you wish to see in the world
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| Church - A Love Hate Relationship |
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Mountain, I had the same problem for a long time. I used to get anoyed at people that I thought were just going through the motions. People that were going for the glory and recognition. I used to get frustrated with people all the time. Then I realized that the same people that I had problems with also had problems with me. Hmmmm, maybe I was not the only on that was right. Novel idea that.
I did the whole "Steeple Chase" thing. Apostolic, UPC, AG. I even tried Presbyterian. I kinda liked that. Very different than any church I had ever been to.
My mom and dad always told me to keep my eyes on God and not the people around me. They said when I was perfect, the others would be also. I finaly got it. 
Now I've moved to Ohio and need to find another church. I'd better get my "I want to be a clone" tape out and dust it off. It's gonna be a bumpy ride. 
Pray for me and my family.
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"Why a four year old child could understand this...
run out and get me a four year old child, I can't make heads or tails of it."
~Groucho~
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03-05-2004 22:06 |
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Yo Mountie....
Thanks!
