Daniel Amos Message Board | Print: re-release music question

Posted by jon eddies on 03-11-2008 at21:53:

re-release music question

So I have a question. What is the possibility of setting up a place to download MP3's of the older out of print tunes? It would ultimately save you all some cash in printing and mass production. I understand that a lot of it may be owned by other companies and what not, but any of it that you do own. Why not? Just a thought that I'm sure has already come up but I had to ask.

Posted by audiori on 03-12-2008 at00:38:

If its a title that is owned by another company (which is the bulk of the material), the rights for downloads have to be negotiated separately from the rights to reissue the title. Many times, that company wants to maintain exclusive ownership of the downloading rights. We've even had companies specify that in contracts. Generally, if we go to the trouble to work out a deal with someone, we feel like we might as well do the entire package and just make it as nice as we can.

With stuff that Stunt owns... it has been considered with certain titles. A couple of these bands will most likely have some rarities available for download in the not-to-distant future.

Posted by Jerry Davison on 03-12-2008 at09:21:

Audiori,
Out of curiosity, how much of the old stuff is still owned by KMG? Why do they want the rights to anything since they only seem to want to sit on it and let it collect dust? Why do they put nothing on iTunes? Are they trying to NOT make any money? I'm a bit confused...

Posted by Audiori J on 03-12-2008 at10:51:

KMG owns most of it, there are a few albums they don't. I think part of the issue is that they paid for the material they own and want a return for the investment. Where we as fans may differ in opinion with them is how best to achieve that return.

We had a similar conversation with Larry Norman, when we were negotiating the HD special edition. He said he didnt think there currently was a market for it, we disagreed. He didn't want to print them and sell 100 and sit on 900 or whatever. The problem is, and the reason he actually needed to work with us, he couldn't sell them... but we could. There were and are people, DA fans that won't buy from Larry. So if he prints the CD it shrivels up, we sell out of old titles all the time.

Its possible KMG thinks that if they hold on to their investment it will eventually pay off in some general market way. Which I suppose it could, if Rock Arena paid them what they were asking, but technically we could sell pretty much any title if it was in stock right now here.

KMG might think they can at some point print DA albums and stick them in Family Bookstores or whatever.. and they will sit and gather dust there because DA fans won't see them generally.

Because of some fubar deal the old manager made, we had to send M8 like 700 Imaginariums (that deal was bad in so many ways) they put them in their Heavy Metal fanzine catalogue and they sold like crap. We eventually bought them back from M8 cheap and sold them all out in short time. They probably came to the conclusion DA stuff doesn't sell, we came to the conclusion they didn't know how to market things correctly... or print them correctly... or master them correctly...

Posted by jiminy on 03-12-2008 at11:18:

you said fubar........ Big Grin

Posted by jiminy on 03-12-2008 at11:21:

only because it probably is (was)

I cringed at some of the very "tame" things that Phil Keaggy had to say about the early days of C Managament..at least with the Rock World you kind of know your getting screwed..

Phil put a lot of "trust" out there..with no return .

I think its better now- at the sad cost to a lot of our favorite older artists.

Posted by Audiori J on 03-12-2008 at11:40:

From my perspective when it comes to the CCM "industry", there is the assumption that you are working with Christian people who will act Christ-like, that at times is not the case. I don't expect a company/label to do anything other than try and make more money than they spend, that is after all the goal of business. But amazingly you often run into the occassional person who I assume sees dollar signs in their heads and they do some unscrupulous things. And there are the dilusional few that think there is enough money being made to spread around, that you can be careless.

When not a lot of money is coming in, to maximize the investment vs return ratio, you have to invest less obviously. That means, if we can find people willing to help in some way to keep things going that won't charge hideously large rates for their services, thats what we have to do. Often that means personal sacrifice on the part of some in order to get a release out. Thats what makes the people that 'rip off' these artists even more unscrupulous. They techincally rip off the artist, those that are supporting the artist and the fans.

Its why we often turn to 'preorders' even though they suck for everyone involved, it is keeping it all "inhouse". Its just between the fans who want to see the artist continue and the artist. The fans want the music, the artist needs cash to make it. It actually helps to maximize the return to the artist for the time and investment he puts into the project by there being no middleman.

With that, I will say, friends of the artists such as Jeffrey K, Dan Michaels, Gene Eugene, Ojo Taylor, etc are trusted. I don't mean to say that working with a label is always bad, sometimes its great for the guys. But those are situations where the artist knows the label owner more closely.

Posted by Jerry Davison on 03-12-2008 at11:40:

I'm not completely sure how it works but with digital downloads there is little to no up front cost. I'm sure iTunes wants something to sell them but there are no printing costs, no manufacturing costs, no shipping or distribution costs, and people only buy what they want so there is no left over stock to return or sit on, etc. I don't expect our old Frontline stuff to go into print but why can't they make them available digitally? It's a win-win for everyone.

Posted by jiminy on 03-12-2008 at11:53:

jerry jerry..
you live in Vegas and you dont know the odds yet??
Cool

Posted by Audiori J on 03-12-2008 at11:54:

It depends. Some owners don't want their stuff put out that way. When we did the Alarma bookset one of the owners of one album restricted us on how we could distribute it. I think to some, they see it as deluding the market and if the market is already weak they don't want to do that. If they are hoping for a market boom, or a desire for the album to build so they can take advantage of the best opportunity.. they may not want to have it available that way. People want what they can't get.

When Mark Heard passed away, someone that owns a portion of his albums said 'finally, maybe I can make some money off these abums'. Extremely callous and frankly cold hearted thing to say, but if the guy had invested thousands of dollars of his own money into Mark's albums that didn't sell, in his mind he is thinking Mark's death might generate interest and he can finally get back what he put into them. Much like Keith Green's work which I am betting sold more after he died.

My personal opinion is that if the albums are put out that way (digital download) by KMG the band/Terry will see less money from them than if they can arrange reissues themselves. My personal concern is to get the albums out and make sure the money ends up where it should.

Posted by jiminy on 03-12-2008 at12:25:

well - no one wants to address this..

but I think we all are aware that many many OOP recordings are available on line..did I say many?? - I mean many, many, many, many, many, many.......

I am sure there are some who will pay via an Itunes format...but those who are saavy to downloading MP#s have perhaps already done so-

So to me the release of a HQ piece of media- with artwork similar to the original-and bonus tracks or booklets and extra info is a lot more appealing to this small(er) fan base.

my 2 cents worth (well 7 cents now with inflation)

Posted by jiminy on 03-12-2008 at12:27:

well - and theres the control factor- as well as more direct involvement (and payment?) to the artists themselves.

Posted by Audiori J on 03-12-2008 at12:42:

Exactly why we look into doing DVDs, booksets, special packaging and bonus tracks. Terry/DA is in competition with everyone that offers his music for free, as are any other 'struggling artist.'

Posted by jiminy on 03-12-2008 at14:40:

well??
Keep on looking into it! Big Grin

what you guys put out is great stuff..
preordered or not.. Cool

Posted by DwDunphy on 03-12-2008 at15:22:

It seems that a lot of my favorite bands now go it alone, either by choice or by force of an unfriendly marketplace. I guess that it is a blessing in disguise with the music industry (no matter what side of it) in such a shambles.

It's sad though that old work ends up being held hostage until, surmising what you said, the artist dies and his "saleability" goes up in memorial proportions.

Posted by dennis on 03-12-2008 at18:06:

Yes, so very true! Frown

Posted by Tyler Durden on 03-12-2008 at18:12:

I am a geek for great packaging. The Alarma was great. I would have kickied in extra cash for bookset on the Hats project.

I know the history, so all is well. The added CD was great as was the new text.

Posted by audiori on 03-12-2008 at18:21:

quote:

Originally posted by Audiori J

My personal opinion is that if the albums are put out that way (digital download) by KMG the band/Terry will see less money from them than if they can arrange reissues themselves.

Even with stuff that a band owns, downloads have been pretty much pointless for some of these bands when they've been done. Some friend bands have put up their entire catalogs as downloads and sell next to nothing from them.. but yet, people will still buy the CDs.

Having said that, there is still a desire to offer some things that way.

Posted by dennis on 03-12-2008 at18:31:

quote:

Originally posted by Tyler Durden
I am a geek for great packaging.

Yes, I prefer that over downloads any old day of the week! Pleased

Heck, I want to buy re-issues of records too!

Posted by larryl on 03-12-2008 at20:03:

quote:

Originally posted by audiori

quote:

i was told by a reliable source that pritzl does very well with his digital stuff...