Daniel Amos Message Board | Print: Would CDs on demand ever be considered?

Posted by DrDanAmos on 05-19-2009 at22:09:

Would CDs on demand ever be considered?

In another thread I started (about Russian download sites and the question of royalties paid to the artists) I got to thinking.... I got just about everything I could find that Terry's hands have touched. Heck, I even just ordered four CDs online a couple days ago that he produced that I just found out about. DA and Terry related projects take up a HUGE chunk of my collection, as I am sure it does for most of us posting on this board.

But...I rarely came across the CDs when they were brand new. I bought the wide majority of them from second hand sellers, because they were out of print.

And, obviously, Terry and the gang never made one thin dime off of those purchases.

(Which is one reason I decided to join the Avocado Club when it was available...just to show my support.)

But it got me to thinking...in today's modern society, why aren't the old and out of print CDs offered online through a burn on demand service which would give the royalties back to Terry and the respective artists involved?

I do see there are products for sale on cafepress.com, but the royalties on there for CDs are awfully low. What about a place like Mixonic? Or surely there must be some other online store?

And then even the two disc special editions could stay in print. And then people wouldn't have to hunt down out of print CDs from Ebay and other places and the band would get more support.

Just a random thought. I am sure people far more intelligent and clever than me entertained this concept before, but I am just curious about the answer.

Posted by Jimmy Brown on 05-20-2009 at11:12:

I can't give you a definitive answer, but I believe a lot of the troubles come down to the rights. Daniel Amos's albums were originally released on a lot of different labels (Maranatha, Solid Rock, Newpax, Alarma!, Frontline, Stunt, BAI, etc.). Determining who even has the rights would be difficult in some cases. Then a release would need to be negotiated with each rightsholder. Depending on what agreement could be reached, there may not be enough in sales to cover even the cost of digital distribution, let alone marketing physical CDs.

Then there's the time; they simply aren't going to throw something out there that isn't good quality. The existing masters, if they can be found, may have deteriorated and sound terrible by this point. Someone would need to clean it up, and the guys would have to listen to it and decide if they like it. I seem to remember (though I may be mistaken) that Terry was extremely busy when the new mix for the special release of the first album reached him, and he didn't get a chance to evaluate it for a several weeks.

Posted by audiori on 05-20-2009 at11:34:

That pretty well sums it up. Digital distribution rights often have to be negotiated separately from regular reissue rights.. so if you have one, you don't necessarily have the other.

We are trying to get some of the "lesser" releases (oddities, rarities, EPs, live discs, etc) rereleased in a less expensive format.. things like Hodgepodge and All Day Sing. That generally doesn't work well for a regular album.

We have discussed the possibility of less expensive versions of reissues.. so that there might be a remastered 2 disc version with expanded artwork *and* a less expensive, single disc version printed more in the "All Day Sing" style. It may be something that makes sense with certain releases, but it probably wouldn't happen with everything.

There is a chance that a Print-on-Demand arrangement will be in place for certain titles (like ones that are owned by Stunt or Fools of the World). The main purpose will be expanded distribution. More on that later..

Posted by audiori on 05-20-2009 at12:40:

With that in mind... I'm curious...

Let's say when we get the DA 30th release back in stock, we also had a single disc version without the extended packaging & bonus material for a little less money. Say the regular 2 disc release was $20 and the single disc version was something like $12... would any of you prefer the single disc version over the 2 disc set?

(Those of you that already have it, just pretend you don't for a minute Big Grin

)

Posted by UnderDawg on 05-20-2009 at13:24:

Nah, I'd want the 2 disc, bonus stuff. If I was gonna get it, I'd want it all. AND AUTOGRAPHED TOO!!!!

Since we're just playing make believe....

Posted by Ron E on 05-20-2009 at14:31:

I think, for something redone with liner notes and everything, I'd want the hard copy. For something like, say, Rapsures, which I've never heard, I'd be willing to pay for a download, but have no interest in the liner notes for that.

Maybe you can even offer the cover art/notes for download, even for a fee, I'd pay for that. I just find its too much of a hassle to pay shipping, customs,etc on things that I may not really want, such as live versions of things I already have or stuff that's going to be more novelty than good.

If say something like... Live 82 was to be rereleased with no new liner notes, then I'd likely download something like that. I have it on cassette only and if there were only new songs but no new packaging of significance, I'd lilke the songs digitized for iPod anyway, so that would be cool.

Posted by audiori on 05-20-2009 at14:56:

That is a possiblity with certain ones..

Bootleg 82 is one we want to do as inexpensively as possible... theres really no reason that its not in print in one form or another, aside from just a financial issue. Theres always been something more important to spend money on. So, if a reissue is done inexpensively, it could happen very soon. It makes sense since there really isn't much to add in terms of photos or liner notes. It was pretty much all there to begin with (aside from a few songs, which will hopefully be restored to the show).

Posted by DrDanAmos on 05-20-2009 at23:58:

I would want the two disc with the extras and bells and whistles.

And print on demand doesn't mean you have to skimp on packaging either. I usually do CDs with four page cover for my personal stuff. Maybe a full book like the Darn Floor Big Bite release might be more challenging, but you can still get a nice CD package with print on demand.

Posted by audiori on 05-21-2009 at00:45:

Yeah you can... just not quite like what we did with Imaginarium Deluxe, DA30th or Darn Floor.

Posted by Ron E on 05-21-2009 at07:04:

I guess, it depends on the situation, do you want something "available" or do you want to create a product. Both have merits, and if something like Live Bootleg 82 is basically all there is as it was, then that would be cool to just be "available". I think there is a great thing to hold onto things like say, Kalhoun, for the 30th anniversary edition Smile

Posted by Mountain Fan on 05-21-2009 at10:44:

quote:

Originally posted by audiori
With that in mind... I'm curious...

Let's say when we get the DA 30th release back in stock, we also had a single disc version without the extended packaging & bonus material for a little less money. Say the regular 2 disc release was $20 and the single disc version was something like $12... would any of you prefer the single disc version over the 2 disc set?

(Those of you that already have it, just pretend you don't for a minute Big Grin

)

The DA 30th was very nicely done with a booklet in a proper CD jewel case, instead of one of those ridiculous digi-pak things. It also included a lot of unique bonus material instead of only early-alternate mixes of the same songs. (I think, I got the 3rd disc too?!) So, in that regard I would be glad to get the higher-price 2-disc version (and in fact thought about giving it as a gift to someone but it sold out).

The DFBB 2-disc version really didn't include much extra worth having for me. I still haven't bought the new version and occasionally check to see how used prices are doing (a little cheaper, but not much). I would buy a revised single-disc DFBB version of that if it was normal price, but it would have to at least be in a jewel case format with insert and booklet instead of cardboard sleeve. Digipaks or sleeves don't fit neatly in storage and are more subject to fingerprint/liquid damage which is why i detest them so. If a jewel case breaks, you just get another one to hold your still-intact booklet/inserts. $12-$15 with the regular cheap shipping would be a fair price for a jewel case single-disc version IMHO.

Posted by Jimmy Brown on 05-21-2009 at11:22:

For the DA30th, I would still prefer the 2-disc version. Of course, if the choice had been between one-disc or nothing, one-disc would be fine.

Posted by Audiori J on 05-21-2009 at12:13:

Yeah a lot to consider. The rights are one aspect that has to be dealt with in every case. But the second issue is in what format do you release something. We had intended, and still plan on, doing deluxe reissues of the actual albums as nicely done as possible because we think Terry and DA deserve it, and so do the fans. Of course that takes time/money.

Some albums and things can be done in the meantime in a less than a deluxe way just to get things out there.

Thats the balance.

When you get into downloads and mp3's that's a whole different ballgame. First you have to get the rights to do it, as my brother said, secondly though is it actually worth the time. The guys put some Lost Dogs stuff up for download through I believe itunes, and it really didn't do anything. Paying for the rights and actually taking the time to work on it needs to have some return for the investment. We've had better return for investment through the deluxe releases so far, and currently the less than deluxe releases.

Even in regard to Darn Floor, which Arena Rock got into the Best Buy, etc computers... the question is, were there more sales because it was there or not? How many people dig through the Best Buy computer and special order stuff they never heard of?

A big part of the puzzle is understanding where the majority of your fan base is. Are they teens with ipods? Are they older guys who have barely switched to CDs? How do you appeal to both? How do you get people who never heard of you to try your music? With Daniel Amos there is a big delema in this area, a good sized chunk of the fanbase are older people still spinning their Shotgun Angel LP. Another chunk are the guys that show up at the Lost Dogs shows. Another rather large chunk are the Imaginarium/Neverhood kids. These groups don't really blend culturally.

There really isn't an easy answer, sometimes people think... if they would just do downloads that would solve everything.. or if they could just get stuff in Best Buy... or whatever. It really depends. We could put all our effort into getting all the stuff on itunes and make $30 back simply because the majority of his fans are not there yet and everyone else on there doesn't know who he is.

Posted by PuP on 05-21-2009 at12:52:

People buy CDs still? Seriously? I am a digital-only man, myself. I am sick and tired of all the broken jewel cases, scratched CDs, shelves of lost space, disorganization, and general pain of physical media.

I can understand some fondness for the vinyl with its analog sound and large artwork, but CDs are 5" of near evil. Put your liner notes/artwork in a PDF and sell the album over the webs.

Wow. That turned into more of a rant than I expected!

Posted by PuP on 05-21-2009 at12:54:

Oh, and include bonus tracks since that was the original question (I think) but put anything you would have in liner notes on the web site.

Posted by jyroflux on 05-21-2009 at13:28:

quote:

Originally posted by PuP
People buy CDs still? Seriously? I am a digital-only man, myself. I am sick and tired of all the broken jewel cases, scratched CDs, shelves of lost space, disorganization, and general pain of physical media.

I don't feel safe just having a digital copy. It's all too easy for something to go wrong and lose it all. I buy several CD's every week. I have thousands. My CD's don't get scratched. I invested in cabinets to safely house them and I have them in order so they are easy to find.

That said, I have bought a lot of digital tracks, and it's a lot of time and effort to make sure that I have backups saved. Plus I've never been happy with the quality of the cover art in most digital tracks. I'd rather have the actual CD booklet to scan myself.

Posted by Mountain Fan on 05-21-2009 at14:14:

quote:

Originally posted by PuP
People buy CDs still? Seriously? I am a digital-only man, myself. I am sick and tired of all the broken jewel cases, scratched CDs, shelves of lost space, disorganization, and general pain of physical media.

I can understand some fondness for the vinyl with its analog sound and large artwork, but CDs are 5" of near evil. Put your liner notes/artwork in a PDF and sell the album over the webs.

Wow. That turned into more of a rant than I expected!

I agree with a lot of that, however for my favorite artists I would still buy physical product.

Posted by Mountain Fan on 05-21-2009 at14:16:

quote:

Originally posted by PuP
Oh, and include bonus tracks since that was the original question (I think) but put anything you would have in liner notes on the web site.

for DFBB, one can only download CD1 tracks - no artwork (booklet) and no extras. overall the download should be cheaper than the physical version.

Posted by Mountain Fan on 05-21-2009 at14:18:

quote:

Originally posted by jyroflux

quote:

Originally posted by PuP
People buy CDs still? Seriously? I am a digital-only man, myself. I am sick and tired of all the broken jewel cases, scratched CDs, shelves of lost space, disorganization, and general pain of physical media.

I don't feel safe just having a digital copy. It's all too easy for something to go wrong and lose it all. I buy several CD's every week. I have thousands. My CD's don't get scratched. I invested in cabinets to safely house them and I have them in order so they are easy to find.

That said, I have bought a lot of digital tracks, and it's a lot of time and effort to make sure that I have backups saved. Plus I've never been happy with the quality of the cover art in most digital tracks. I'd rather have the actual CD booklet to scan myself.

interesting. they probably don't have cover art good quality in digital format to discourage copying Frown

Posted by audiori on 05-21-2009 at14:23:

Yes, its unlikely that everything included in the deluxe editions would ever be available for download. Nothing would be done to diminish the value of the Deluxe Editions. If you make a less expensive alternative, its going to be bare-bones.. just for the folks that have to have the album but don't care about all of the bells and whistles.