Daniel Amos Message Board | Print: CCM Magazine December 2003

Posted by freak on 11-21-2003 at08:30:

RE: CCM or ccm

quote:

Originally posted by HEMISPHERICALHEADS

quote:

Originally posted by freak
I understand that music is Christian and Contemporary... and I like music that is Christian and at one time was Contemporary (ccm)... I enjoy much music that is Christian...

But CCM is also an industry - and as an industry... this machine is attempting to forecast new trends and dress up dolls and boys (just check out Michael W. Smith from his first Album to Go West Young Man - pretty drastic change) to capture the attention of the youth and capture the newly married, and many other niche markets. The industry uses the term Christian - but they might as well be Epic Records or any other... it is one more case where Christendom has mirrored the world... rather than built a music ministry that mirrors the values of the Kingdom. What comes out (in most cases) is anything but authentic - instead we get plastic smiles; cliche' lyrics; and something that sounds like everything else on the radio - if smashmouth is popular on the "secular" radio - then the CCM industry has to churn out a "christian - sanitized smashmouth like band... to ride the smashmouth trend - so rather than allowing bands to create their own sound - the industry it appears to me reacts to what is happening in the world - rather than be out on the edge and creating new sounds, approaches and what I consider authentic music... The exceptions are so obvious - Delirious hits out of no where and on their own merit - little marketing, etc. are an overnight phenomenon; Burlap to Cashmere, Chevelle, Jars of Clay... each of these bands when they emerged - were the genuine result of Christian people creating their own sound - untouched by the machine of CCM... and the results were so refreshing (there are many good people with good intentions in CCM - I am sure - from artists to producers to front office types - but in my estimation the philosophical ideaologies are flawed).

That is what is so refreshing about a DA - they have been in, but not of CCM - they have remained unique; authentic; real and extremely creative. They do represent what could be in music that reflects our faith...

Good responses FREAK..
I agree..Good music is supposed to be art..Most CCM is not art.Most secular is not art..People in this postmodern society don't understand what good art is. They think Brittney running around showing us her jewels is artistic? People are very shallow in these days..There is not a whole lot of depth in anything anymore. Rather than reading Ravi Zacharias or C.S. Lewis we would rather read the "left Behind Series" and consider it masterpiece.

Hemisphere... yeah much of what is passed on as artistic (these people our society refers to as musical artists!?) is massproduce; assembly line formulaic mind swiss vanilla booboo that is low on substance and is far from art... but when our culture does produce art; for those who recognize it that is a good thing, it is a good and lovely thing - I try to dwell on those jewels - rather than Brittney's or Victoria Secrets.

Have you heard of the new book, "My Left Behind..." Wink

Posted by Squidzit on 11-21-2003 at08:31:

quote:

Originally posted by HEMISPHERICALHEADS
People used to say Bob Dylan was ripping off Woody Guthrie....
I have a good friend who continiously says this and therefore will not listen to Mr. Zimmerman....

People are influenced by others..We don't have to follow it to a tee..There is nothing wrong with being influenced by someone..

I agree with that. But you said good music is supposed to be art, and then defined art as what you like. How can we do that?

Posted by freak on 11-21-2003 at08:35:

quote:

Originally posted by Squidzit

quote:

Originally posted by jiminy
(Maximum Security religion)

LOL!!

I did my time too baby! Crying

Free from MSR... Thank God I am free from that. You know Christians are against biological cloning - I wish they would be consistent and be outraged at Spiritual cloning.

"Send in the Clones!"
"Everybody must get cloned!"
-- Steve Taylor

Posted by Squidzit on 11-21-2003 at08:39:

MSR. Sounds like what they put in Chinese food. Tongue

What religion is Terry? What did he grow up as?

Posted by HEMISPHERICALHEADS on 11-21-2003 at09:05:

quote:

Originally posted by Squidzit

quote:

I agree with that. But you said good music is supposed to be art, and then defined art as what you like. How can we do that?

What I mean is that these days Christians are sort of afraid of artistic integrity. It was the church (Body of Christ) that RULED the artistic world hundreds of years ago. Now there is minimal art in any genre of music because money is the motivating factor. Show your bodacious ta tas and you'll generate an extra half million sales , maybe more. crap about getting into a threesome with president Clinton and Lewinsky (Snoopp) and that will increase your fan base...
I understand that some people really could care less about the "Meat" of the music , they are just desiring some "ear swiss vanilla booboo". Noise for the background. That is the stuff that people will eventually forget about as time goes on..It's the true "artist" that will always be remembered. They were the ones responsible to get people to actually use the brains God gave them.

Posted by jiminy on 11-21-2003 at09:20:

quote:

Originally posted by Squidzit
MSR. Sounds like what they put in Chinese food. Tongue

What religion is Terry? What did he grow up as?

I think the footnotes of NCT give a bit of Terrys growing up exposure to his faith.
Them Nazarenes can get a bit wild-ya know.

I think growing up in CA-you pick up a lot of the TV and Radio Preachers
they have been rampent with that kind of evangelism since way back
(see Rolling Stones "The girl with far a way eyes" as an example.....

Posted by Vox Robotica on 11-21-2003 at10:35:

I think the whole CCM debate has grown tiresome.

I've gone back and forth in my feelings on music, and I'm sure I'll swing to and fro still for a few years now, but my feelings at this moment is that music in and of itself is spiritually ambiguous. Sure, there are bands that endorse their beliefs, sometimes through their music, sometimes through their interaction with the media - but overall, music is a vague thing.

But, I do try to avoid certain artists - despite their talent. I won't listen to the Beatles (I have issues with them including Anton Levay on the cover of Sgt. Pepper) or Zeppelin (they're just messed up). But that's my own taste. I look at the scripture that says "I will set no unclean before my eyes - the acts of faithless men I hate" and wonder, does it mean "my ears" too?

Overall I'm still confused and I take things as I go. I still enjoy some secular music - but mostly I enjoy stuff of a Christian nature. I love a good worship CD from Vineyard at times. I like heavy hitting music like P.O.D. I love anything TST is involved in. But each of these things speaks to me on a different level.

And that's where I think music comes down to - where does it speak to you? Or is it just fluff?

~VR~

Posted by HEMISPHERICALHEADS on 11-21-2003 at10:42:

quote:

Originally posted by Vox Robotica
I won't listen to the Beatles (I have issues with them including Anton Levay on the cover of Sgt. Pepper)
~VR~

He's on there too? I know Allister Crowley is too.....

Posted by Vox Robotica on 11-21-2003 at10:46:

quote:

Originally posted by HEMISPHERICALHEADS

quote:

Originally posted by Vox Robotica
I won't listen to the Beatles (I have issues with them including Anton Levay on the cover of Sgt. Pepper)
~VR~

He's on there too? I know Allister Crowley is too.....

Maybe I'm confusing the two of them....but it's possible both are on there.

Not sure.

~ VR ~

Posted by Squidzit on 11-21-2003 at10:59:

It's ALL just opinions no matter what we think!
Even what I just typed^!

Here's a list of everyone on Sgt. Peppers. Even the objects in the picture.

1. Sri Yukteswar Giri (guru)
2. Aleister Crowley (dabbler in sex, drugs, & magic)
3. Mae West (actress)
4. Lenny Bruce (comic)
5. Karlheinz Stockhausen (composer)
6. W.C. (William Claude) Fields (comic)
7. Cark Gustav Jung (psychologist)
8. Edgar Allan Poe (writer)
9. Fred Astaire (actor)
10. Richard Merkin (artist)
11. The Varga Girl (by artist Alberto Vargas)
12. * Leo Gorcey (actor)
13. Huntz Hall (actor, with Leo Gorcey, one of the Bowery Boys)
14. Simon Rodia (creator of Watts Towers)
15. Bob Dylan (musician)
16. Aubrey Beardsley (illustrator)
17. Sir Robert Peel
18. Aldous Huxley (writer)
19. Dylan Thomas (poet)
20. Terry Southern (writer)
21. Dion (di Mucci) (singer)
22. Tony Curtis (actor)
23. Wallace Berman (actor)
24. Tommy Handley (comic)
25. Marilyn Monroe (actress)
26. William Burroughs (writer)
27. Sri Mahavatara Babaji (guru)
28. Stan Laurel (comic)
29. Richard Lindner (artist)
30. Oliver Hardy (comic)
31. Karl Marx (philosopher / socialist)
32. H.G. (Herbert George) Wells (writer)
33. Sri Paramahansa Yagananda (guru)
34. Anonymous (wax hairdressers' dummy)
35. Stuart Sutcliffe (artist / former Beatle)
36. Anonymous (wax hairdressers' dummy)
37. Max Miller (comic)
38. The Petty Girl (by artist George Petty)
39. Marlon Brando (actor)
40. Tom Mix (actor)
41. Oscar Wilde (writer)
42. Tyrone Power (actor)
43. Larry Bell (artist)
44. Dr. David Livingstone (missionary / explorer)
45. Johnny Weismuller (swimmer / actor)
46. Stephen Crane (writer)
47. Issy Bonn (comic)
48. George Bernard Shaw (writer)
49. H.C. (Horace Clifford) Westermann (sculptor)
50. Albert Stubbins (soccer player)
51. Sri Lahiri Mahasaya (guru)
52. Lewis Carroll (writer)
53. T.E. (Thomas Edward) Lawrence (soldier, a/k/a Lawrence of Arabia)
54. Sonny Liston (boxer)
55. The Petty Girl (by artist George Petty)
56. Wax model of George Harrison
57. Wax model of John Lennon
58. Shirley Temple (child actress)
59. Wax model of Ringo Starr
60. Wax model of Paul McCartney
61. Albert Einstein (physicist)
62. John Lennon, holding a French horn
63. Ringo Starr, holding a trumpet
64. Paul McCartney, holding a cor anglais
65. George Harrison, holding a flute
66. Bobby Breen (singer)
67. Marlene Dietrich (actress)
68. ** Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi (Indian leader)
69. Legionnaire from the Order of the Buffaloes
70. Diana Dors (actress)
71. Shirley Temple (child actress)
72. Cloth grandmother figure by Jann Haworth
73. Cloth figure of Shirley Temple (child actress) by Jann Haworth
74. Mexican candlestick
75. Television set
76. Stone figure of girl
77. Stone figure
78. # Statue from John Lennon's house
79. Trophy
80. Four-armed Indian doll
81. Drum-skin, designed by Joe Ephgrave
82. Hookah (water tobacco-pipe)
83. Velvet snake
84. Japanese stone figure
85. Stone figure of Snow White
86. Garden gnome
87. Tuba

I got it from this site. It's cool. Put your pointer on a face and it will tell you who it is! Cool

Peppers cover photo

Posted by HEMISPHERICALHEADS on 11-21-2003 at11:06:

The Beatles were not nessesarily endorsing these people only featuring individuals who impacted society good or bad..I mean Oscar Wilde is on there as well. He was a noteworthy playright but he was also a Pedophile/Homosexual rapist.. Confused

Posted by Squidzit on 11-21-2003 at11:07:

That's correct HEMI! But most people think they are their heros or something. Red Face

Posted by audiori on 11-21-2003 at15:43:

Yup, even Hitler almost made it on the cover. Pretty
safe to say he's not a hero of any of the Beatles...

Posted by Joey T. on 11-21-2003 at16:01:

quote:

Originally posted by audiori
Yup, even Hitler almost made it on the cover.

of ccm???

Posted by bret on 11-21-2003 at16:23:

I will not get involved with this discussion regarding CCM.
I will listen to GOOD music
I will not follow the trends of the "music industry" but will hold fast to the artists that I dig.
I will keep my ears open for new and exciting things.
I will not listen to the Tuxedo Clad Megastar.
I will support the "local musician" and the "indies"

Have a nice day.

Posted by audiori on 11-21-2003 at17:07:

[quote]Originally posted by Vox Robotica
I look at the scripture that says "I will set no unclean before my eyes - the acts of faithless men I hate" and wonder, does it mean "my ears" too?
quote]

Yes I agree with this, but in todays age it's difficult to know the faith of
the people creating the art. If you don't watch or listen to anything possibly
made by a faithless man, get rid of your TV, CD player, radio, newspapers,
magazines, etc, etc.

I don't know the faith of any of the Beatles except George. I do know
that John and Paul grew up going to church.. and paul wrote a semi-autobiagrphical classical piece about a man who was born again.
Linda and Heather McCartney were supposed to be Christians..
And John went through a period in the late 70s where he said he was
born again after watching a TV preacher he liked. I am not saying
I think they were saved, but I have no real way of knowing.

I have no way of knowing the hearts of even so called Christian artists
either.. I am sure there are non-Christian singers in CCM. I can only
speak about the guys in DA and the 77s I feel they have a heart for God,
but a lot of other people I have no way of knowing.

The only thing I can do really is judge the art, there are certain songs
that I personally feel I should not listen to, and some that I don't
feel affect me negatively. Example the song "Yesterday" by Paul McCartney
is about his Mother that passed away when he was young. I don't judge
that song as unclean. "Elenore Rigby" also actually has a pretty good
message to it. "I Me Mine" is about the selfishness of society, there
are so many more I could mention.

I am not saying I think everyone should listen to this stuff, if you are convicted about listening to it then you shouldn't. I think it's a personal
choice based on your own standing with God.

And I think it's a step by step row of choices, some TV shows I won't watch,
some I will.. etc. Sometimes I make that choice in the middle of a show.

Posted by Stuart Pedasso on 11-21-2003 at18:46:

"I hate anything that sells Christ."

Interesting statement, whoring for Jesus. Funny how as Christians we want nothing to do with anything even remotely supporting or spreading the message of Christ's love.

If it was so easy for hacks to get signed to a "Christian" label maybe your band if you had one could get on a label. I'll admit to being disgusted with much of the music, mainly because I don't like it, not because it's Christian or follows the fads of secular music. Guess what kiddies, secular music follows the fads of secular music. How many boy bands were polluting the airwaves a couple of years ago.

As to the collective known as CCM, it's an unfortunate label, since businesses and things cannot be Christian. They can be run by Christians, but a business makes money. Pure and simple. I've enjoyed countless Christian bands whose message is earnest.

Anyone else remember the Praise Strings? That was the ick of CCM back in the early 80's. Well, now it's the worship stuff. Some of my favourites aren't immune either. Kaiser, Hindalong, Mike Roe, etc have all done their take on worship too. Are they bad for following, or creative for a new spin on an old horse?

Selling Christ? You bet, we should all be selling Christ.

This is more about Ministry / Entertainment. If you're a minister you don't charge to go to church. If you entertain you do.

I've been ministered to seeing The Dogs live, but I paid to see 'em. Who was the Christ Whore then? Me I guess cause I paid the money.

They have a gift, and a message, and they charge for it. Good. Good for them.

What do you do for a living that you don't charge for?

Hats off to DA for making the Hall of Fame, which in of itself is an unChristian concept. "For in my house there are many rooms... " So DA gets to sit in the hall. Not very Charitable.

Of course, it's not cool to be an ordinary Christian who likes some Christian music, and not others. We should hate all CCM. Kill 'em all and let God sort em out in the great delete bin in the sky.

Last I heard Bride wasn't CCM either ... I guess their "Christian" label would be surprised. Last time I checked in a "record" store they'd never heard of them ... but my local bookstore has. Hmmm.

Blah blah blah.

There's no winning this one. It'd be better for all concerned if Michael English got Sandy Patti pregnant and encouraged her to have an abortion. Then we could argue about whether or not their back catalog is still CCM?

Posted by Squidzit on 11-21-2003 at20:15:

Thumb Up!

I liked that^. Cool

Posted by dorfsmith on 11-21-2003 at22:15:

What if by some huge mistake, these "Christian artists" are preaching a gospel and selling a Christ to the world and he's a fake? I believe many many of them are selling the Christ of American Christianity which in reality does not even exist. It's a big western idea of who Jesus is and was and what he taught. It's the big industry Jesus that they praise. I serve and praise a simple carpenter that both religious and non-religeous people rejected. We are so influienced by our culture that we make Jesus exactly how we want him so he will fit in with our lifestyle. Well, Jesus didn't fit in and he never will. Neither should we. Jesus would never be associated with big industry Christian or otherwise.