dfroystad 
Sublime Brain Puppet
Registration Date: 09-11-2002
Posts: 85
Location: way out north...uhm. norway
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reissue the book, then reissue the albums, single disc or dobule dosen't matter, if you are a fan and got the first edtition of the book (with the cds) it would not harm you to get the cds again.....you get bonus material, and a nice uniform row in your cd collection with the complete DA-discography 
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11-29-2006 04:06 |
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audiori
Administrator
Registration Date: 03-12-2002
Posts: 11,145
Location: Missouri
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| quote: |
Originally posted by dfroystad
reissue the book, then reissue the albums, single disc or dobule dosen't matter, if you are a fan and got the first edtition of the book (with the cds) it would not harm you to get the cds again.....you get bonus material, and a nice uniform row in your cd collection with the complete DA-discography
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I think this is probably the most likely option so far... certainly the most practical. It would mean that we could start on Alarma and Doppelganger as soon as time allows and we wouldn't have to get the rights to Vox and Fearful first. A strict book set reissue would mean a lot of extra negotiations before any of them could be done. Then, we could still try to reissue the book itself (without the discs, and correcting M8's typos, etc) for anyone that missed it.
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"Blessed is he who expecteth nothing, for he shall enjoy everything" -St. Francis of Assisi
"A strange fanaticism fills our time: the fanatical hatred of morality, especially of Christian morality." - GK Chesterton
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11-30-2006 14:27 |
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jiminy
Tallowy Tamale
Registration Date: 11-16-2002
Posts: 9,494
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hello net
I agree with thee.
I have a mix of original (some on CD..some on "converted" cassette- and all the reissues since 2000 (less the Chronicle set- find large boot- kick own arse.)
so some are in a thin state..and I understaqnd the Audis biggest point- that DA doesnt OWN some of the things we are panting over...
anyways- thx fr posting - now your visible..no mo ghosting!
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jiMinY
theres nothing to EVER put here that will please everyone-let alone anyone.
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11-29-2006 17:19 |
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Audiori J
Administrator
Registration Date: 11-27-2004
Posts: 7,730
Location: "Clowns to the left of me! Jokers to the right! Here I AM stuck in the middle with you." - Stealers Wheel
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Thats false. What creates a market is wanting something they can't get for free. People are only willing to pay for something they can't get any other way. As soon as its available for free the market starts to shrink and die.
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“Blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account.” Matthew 5:11
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11-30-2006 08:35 |
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Mountain Fan
Ubique Epoque
Registration Date: 10-09-2003
Posts: 14,224
Location: NC, Alive and Kicking, BOBD
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| quote: |
Originally posted by dennis
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Originally posted by Audiori J
Thats false. What creates a market is wanting something they can't get for free. People are only willing to pay for something they can't get any other way. As soon as its available for free the market starts to shrink and die. |
That is true, but it's also just as true as more times passes with stuff out of print, the less of a market there is.
It's a shame, but a fact. |
Yep to both. 
While I sympathize with the plight of artists, I also think that recorded art should be a little like a trademark. Part of a trademark is having to "maintain" and "enforce" it. That's why Andy Griffith went after that sheriff dude that changed his name (that was in MN, or upper midwest somewhere, wasn't it?). I think that if an artists' work is not available and they have no plans to do so that it should be legal to copy it free, after some reasonable time period. Now, this would not necessarily apply to Terry and DA. There's plenty of places that have the DA, SE, Terry "greatest hit" CDs and other things. What I am talking about is if NOTHING in that artists' catalog is commercially available, whoever has ownership should have some set time period from the last available date of the recording (20 to 30 years?) to do whatever they please with it. If they choose to do nothing, then they should lose ownership to the public domain so everyone who wants can enjoy the music. Woody Guthrie never bothered copyrighting much, if anything, and I'm sure there were other artists that didn't either, although I think that's kinda silly too.
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Make sure you have heard a Kind Word! 
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11-30-2006 12:22 |
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Josh&etc
Luteous Llama
Registration Date: 11-29-2006
Posts: 282
Location: fading into bolivian
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| quote: |
Originally posted by Mountain Fan
[quote]Originally posted by dennis
[quote]Originally posted by Audiori J
What I am talking about is if NOTHING in that artists' catalog is commercially available, whoever has ownership should have some set time period from the last available date of the recording (20 to 30 years?) to do whatever they please with it. If they choose to do nothing, then they should lose ownership to the public domain so everyone who wants can enjoy the music. |
I'd favor a law that stated that if any recording was out of print for 10 years, the rights to the recording would return to the original artist. And then, maybe ten or fifteen years later, if nothing was done, the recording would become public domain.
Nothing in the artists catalog is too vague, though. Hypoythetically speaking, a company, if they owned the rights to all of a band's music, could release one of their albums every decade or two and fall within the letter of the law. That wouldn't benefit the public that much.
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"I have seen the future and it's like the present, only longer" - Dan Quisenberry
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11-30-2006 14:11 |
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Audiori J
Administrator
Registration Date: 11-27-2004
Posts: 7,730
Location: "Clowns to the left of me! Jokers to the right! Here I AM stuck in the middle with you." - Stealers Wheel
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| quote: |
Originally posted by Mountain Fan
| quote: |
Originally posted by dennis
| quote: |
Originally posted by Audiori J
Thats false. What creates a market is wanting something they can't get for free. People are only willing to pay for something they can't get any other way. As soon as its available for free the market starts to shrink and die. |
That is true, but it's also just as true as more times passes with stuff out of print, the less of a market there is.
It's a shame, but a fact. |
Yep to both.
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I still disagree. If the market was stagnant, and things went out of print and stayed out of print, the market would shrink. For example, an artist that has passed away and the label lets everything go out of print, and people forget about him and no new people are exposed to the music. Then I would agree that the market for those old albums would shrink.
This is not the case with an artist like Terry or DA. He gains new fans through the Neverhood stuff, catscratch, or the lost Dogs material. These new fans will want the old albums, they will buy them when they are available as long as someone doesn't offer it to them for free.
In fact, a lot of work has gone into building the fan base over the last several years. The idea is to build the market as big as possible so Terry and the guys have the income necessary to not have to do preorders, and to be able to put out albums on a good schedule. Those people that work with booking the shows, those people that put on the shows, the labels and people that give money to produce stuff. The people that get the guys in the newspaper and in magazines, people like Terry's son or Linda who push them on myspace. That stuff helps, it builds the market.
People that give away the 'product' for free to the built market basically undermine all the work everyone is doing. Because the goal of the work is to get more and more people to purchase the music, which brings in the money it takes to continue.
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On the other topic, it might be a possiblity to remix some albums. In some cases I know where the multitracks are. We even had thought about doing a 5:1 mix of some albums for special release. Its a thought. There is a few albums we wouldn't have multitracks of, I think Frontline stuff for example.
It would be legal for Terry to rerecord basically any album. Terry owns most of the publishing rights. Thats a different thing. The recording can be copyrighted as an album, for example Horrendous Disc is owned by Solid Rock. But Terry can rerecord the songs or release different non-album recordings of those songs such as live versions because he owns the publishing.
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“Blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account.” Matthew 5:11
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11-30-2006 17:51 |
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dennis
Ubique Epoque
Registration Date: 09-19-2002
Posts: 13,303
Location: In not-quite earth, in not-quite heaven.
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| quote: |
Originally posted by Audiori J
| quote: |
Originally posted by Mountain Fan
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Originally posted by dennis
| quote: |
Originally posted by Audiori J
Thats false. What creates a market is wanting something they can't get for free. People are only willing to pay for something they can't get any other way. As soon as its available for free the market starts to shrink and die. |
That is true, but it's also just as true as more times passes with stuff out of print, the less of a market there is.
It's a shame, but a fact. |
Yep to both.
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I still disagree. If the market was stagnant, and things went out of print and stayed out of print, the market would shrink. For example, an artist that has passed away and the label lets everything go out of print, and people forget about him and no new people are exposed to the music. Then I would agree that the market for those old albums would shrink.
This is not the case with an artist like Terry or DA. He gains new fans through the Neverhood stuff, catscratch, or the lost Dogs material. These new fans will want the old albums, they will buy them when they are available as long as someone doesn't offer it to them for free.
In fact, a lot of work has gone into building the fan base over the last several years. The idea is to build the market as big as possible so Terry and the guys have the income necessary to not have to do preorders, and to be able to put out albums on a good schedule. Those people that work with booking the shows, those people that put on the shows, the labels and people that give money to produce stuff. The people that get the guys in the newspaper and in magazines, people like Terry's son or Linda who push them on myspace. That stuff helps, it builds the market.
People that give away the 'product' for free to the built market basically undermine all the work everyone is doing. Because the goal of the work is to get more and more people to purchase the music, which brings in the money it takes to continue.
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There is always interest for what new stuff Terry is doing,
however when the old stuff is out of print, it's just a missed opportunity.
I still stand by what I say.
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I'm talkin' bout the Vinyl , the Holy Vinyl.
This post has been edited 2 time(s), it was last edited by dennis: 12-01-2006 12:19.
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12-01-2006 08:10 |
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larryl
Official Impasto
Registration Date: 08-25-2003
Posts: 3,554
Location: if you see me, tell me, so i will know where i am
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11-30-2006 08:36 |
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joey
Platyhelminth
Registration Date: 01-08-2003
Posts: 7,231
Location: the biggest fans are often the biggest critics ... sometimes taken as complaining ... get used to it. :P - mountain fan
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| quote: |
Originally posted by larryl
dennis makes good points.
dennis....i confess. i downloaded your discs, for free. 
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you are not a real fan..... 
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11-30-2006 11:14 |
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Audiori J
Administrator
Registration Date: 11-27-2004
Posts: 7,730
Location: "Clowns to the left of me! Jokers to the right! Here I AM stuck in the middle with you." - Stealers Wheel
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Look at it this way, from the beginning of the music industry bands had singles for radio play. The singles are a taste given to radios to wet the appetite for the album. That creates a market, thats business. Its the same thing as handing out one tiny piece of food on a toothpick in the supermarket or a movie preview. Even Myspace is the same concept, a few songs as a sample. That works. Offering the whole album, or movie for free (in a digital perfect format) reduces how many people will actually buy the product. Given the choice, a lot of people will just take the free one instead of buying. Creating a market is making people want something they can't get and then offering to sell it to them. Thats what a market is, not so ironically, thats why its called a market.
These bands need every sale they can get to keep going. Small artists, indipendant artists unfortunately need the same kind of business strategy as any other industry. And they are more directly affected.
We personally assist these guys in selling the CDs for them, we see the effects. Its not a 'guilt trip', its just a fact. Terry and these guys need the die hard and potential fans to buy and not choose the download option instead.
We know , the argument is made, these albums are not currently in print. Even though this guy offered some albums that were in print. But, Terry, Tom and we are trying to work towards sort of the definitive reissue series. Vox Humana for example needs reissued with nice packaging. It never was other than the Alarma Bookset. We want to work toward those negotiations, and Terry and the band will still need every sale possible or its not financially secure to put the money and time into reissuing it. Every time someone puts up a site like this guy had he kills the possibility a little more. Not to mention for every person that chooses to download, instead of buying from Terry, the guy takes money directly out of the bands hands. Terry's letter is an appeal to the fans of DA, that we all are a family, its a special relationship. We all know he needs supported in prayer and financially. We understand he's not a big million dollar artist, he needs the tours and CD sales to keep making music.
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“Blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account.” Matthew 5:11
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11-30-2006 08:49 |
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Josh&etc
Luteous Llama
Registration Date: 11-29-2006
Posts: 282
Location: fading into bolivian
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Speaking of Vox Humana (and Fearful Symmetry), when it is eventually rereleased, would it be possible to have a bonus disc of the songs in "de-synthed" form?
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"I have seen the future and it's like the present, only longer" - Dan Quisenberry
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11-30-2006 10:43 |
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Mountain Fan
Ubique Epoque
Registration Date: 10-09-2003
Posts: 14,224
Location: NC, Alive and Kicking, BOBD
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| quote: |
Originally posted by Josh&etc
Speaking of Vox Humana (and Fearful Symmetry), when it is eventually rereleased, would it be possible to have a bonus disc of the songs in "de-synthed" form? |
I would only buy these and even Doppelganger for anything extra Terry writes. While I like the lyrics, I couldn't come up with even a disc's worth of songs that I would actually enjoy listening to the music from those 3.
I thought the alternate "lounge style" music on When Everyone Wore Hats was great, but I liked the original Songs of the Heart versions too. However, I realize the reality is that re-recording will probably be next to impossible on these re-releases. Maybe if Terry gets together with any of the guys to do any recording for any other project anytime soon (Eddies?) he might consider it a challenge to pick a song or two from each to re-record in a different style (rocked-up with guitars?) and add to the re-release. I can only hope and dream.
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Got a few miles left ...
Make sure you have heard a Kind Word!
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11-30-2006 12:13 |
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dennis
Ubique Epoque
Registration Date: 09-19-2002
Posts: 13,303
Location: In not-quite earth, in not-quite heaven.
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| quote: |
Originally posted by Josh&etc
Speaking of Vox Humana (and Fearful Symmetry), when it is eventually rereleased, would it be possible to have a bonus disc of the songs in "de-synthed" form? |
That would be fun. I like that "Hats" project a lot.
I would buy that!
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I'm talkin' bout the Vinyl , the Holy Vinyl.
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11-30-2006 15:49 |
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joey
Platyhelminth
Registration Date: 01-08-2003
Posts: 7,231
Location: the biggest fans are often the biggest critics ... sometimes taken as complaining ... get used to it. :P - mountain fan
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| quote: |
Originally posted by dennis
| quote: |
Originally posted by Josh&etc
Speaking of Vox Humana (and Fearful Symmetry), when it is eventually rereleased, would it be possible to have a bonus disc of the songs in "de-synthed" form? |
That would be fun. I like that "Hats" project a lot.
I would buy that!
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or even better, do it with dfbb...
if terry can't ever get the rights to that album, could he re-do it that way?
would that be legal? 
although i read somewhere where terry said that was a one-time thing with hats and he won't be doing that with other albums..........
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11-30-2006 16:12 |
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jeffrey k.
Luteous Llama
Registration Date: 06-28-2002
Posts: 386
Location: downers grove illinois
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| quote: |
Originally posted by joey
or even better, do it with dfbb...
if terry can't ever get the rights to that album, could he re-do it that way?
would that be legal?
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As far as I understand this, any artist can re-record anything they want, but they would still have to pay the owners of the music to do it. It's just like a band covering a song...same .concept.
Cracker did this recently. They have had a long running dispute with Virgin Records over their records....which came to another head earlier this year when they found out the label was doing a "Best Of" without consulting them. They asked Virgin to not release the CD as there had already been another Best Of released just a couple years earlier, but Virgin told them to more or less....well....go fornicate themselves....at least according to the band. To complicate matters, the band had a new album they were going to release (on another label as they are no longer on Virgin) and the "Best Of" was scheduled to come out at the same time, which only made things worse....
So....the band delayed their new record release, found out what the track list for the Virgin "Best Of" was going to be, and then went into the studio and re-recorded every song live. Then, to mess with Virgin, they told all the fans to not buy the Virgin version, and then released their own "Best Of" on the same day as the Virgin release....outselling it 10 to 1. In the process they came close to paying off all their publishing debts to Virgin, and apparently will soon own all their old records!! Nothing like a label shooting itself in the foot....I mean Virgin did get "paid", but Cracker is coming out ahead.
So yeah...in theory Terry could re-record all his old stuff he doesn't own, but he'd still have to pay KMG and whoever else for every CD that sells...
jeffrey k.
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This post has been edited 1 time(s), it was last edited by jeffrey k.: 11-30-2006 17:41.
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11-30-2006 17:40 |
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Kit
Esculent Eskimo
Registration Date: 11-30-2003
Posts: 46
Location: Austin
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| quote: |
Originally posted by jeffrey k.
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Originally posted by joey
or even better, do it with dfbb...
if terry can't ever get the rights to that album, could he re-do it that way?
would that be legal?
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As far as I understand this, any artist can re-record anything they want, but they would still have to pay the owners of the music to do it. It's just like a band covering a song...same .concept.
Cracker did this recently. They have had a long running dispute with Virgin Records over their records....which came to another head earlier this year when they found out the label was doing a "Best Of" without consulting them. They asked Virgin to not release the CD as there had already been another Best Of released just a couple years earlier, but Virgin told them to more or less....well....go fornicate themselves....at least according to the band. To complicate matters, the band had a new album they were going to release (on another label as they are no longer on Virgin) and the "Best Of" was scheduled to come out at the same time, which only made things worse....
So....the band delayed their new record release, found out what the track list for the Virgin "Best Of" was going to be, and then went into the studio and re-recorded every song live. Then, to mess with Virgin, they told all the fans to not buy the Virgin version, and then released their own "Best Of" on the same day as the Virgin release....outselling it 10 to 1. In the process they came close to paying off all their publishing debts to Virgin, and apparently will soon own all their old records!! Nothing like a label shooting itself in the foot....I mean Virgin did get "paid", but Cracker is coming out ahead.
jeffrey k. |
And then they tacked on that "Ain't Gonna Suck Itself" song. It's hilarious.
I saw Cracker in concert recently. The Elms opened and were OK live, but I don't find them very interesting on CD. Cracker on the other hand schooled us in the art of rock.
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| quote: |
Originally posted by dennis
everything has gotta reek of something. |
This post has been edited 1 time(s), it was last edited by Kit: 12-03-2006 23:32.
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12-03-2006 23:31 |
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