jon eddies 
Mind Peach
Registration Date: 10-29-2007
Posts: 176
Location: wisconsin
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So I have a question. What is the possibility of setting up a place to download MP3's of the older out of print tunes? It would ultimately save you all some cash in printing and mass production. I understand that a lot of it may be owned by other companies and what not, but any of it that you do own. Why not? Just a thought that I'm sure has already come up but I had to ask.
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03-11-2008 21:53 |
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audiori
Administrator
Registration Date: 03-12-2002
Posts: 11,145
Location: Missouri
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If its a title that is owned by another company (which is the bulk of the material), the rights for downloads have to be negotiated separately from the rights to reissue the title. Many times, that company wants to maintain exclusive ownership of the downloading rights. We've even had companies specify that in contracts. Generally, if we go to the trouble to work out a deal with someone, we feel like we might as well do the entire package and just make it as nice as we can.
With stuff that Stunt owns... it has been considered with certain titles. A couple of these bands will most likely have some rarities available for download in the not-to-distant future.
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"Blessed is he who expecteth nothing, for he shall enjoy everything" -St. Francis of Assisi
"A strange fanaticism fills our time: the fanatical hatred of morality, especially of Christian morality." - GK Chesterton
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03-12-2008 00:38 |
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Jerry Davison
Woolly Eggwhisk
Registration Date: 03-30-2005
Posts: 846
Location: Atlanta, GA
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Audiori,
Out of curiosity, how much of the old stuff is still owned by KMG? Why do they want the rights to anything since they only seem to want to sit on it and let it collect dust? Why do they put nothing on iTunes? Are they trying to NOT make any money? I'm a bit confused...
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03-12-2008 09:21 |
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Audiori J
Administrator
Registration Date: 11-27-2004
Posts: 7,730
Location: "Clowns to the left of me! Jokers to the right! Here I AM stuck in the middle with you." - Stealers Wheel
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KMG owns most of it, there are a few albums they don't. I think part of the issue is that they paid for the material they own and want a return for the investment. Where we as fans may differ in opinion with them is how best to achieve that return.
We had a similar conversation with Larry Norman, when we were negotiating the HD special edition. He said he didnt think there currently was a market for it, we disagreed. He didn't want to print them and sell 100 and sit on 900 or whatever. The problem is, and the reason he actually needed to work with us, he couldn't sell them... but we could. There were and are people, DA fans that won't buy from Larry. So if he prints the CD it shrivels up, we sell out of old titles all the time.
Its possible KMG thinks that if they hold on to their investment it will eventually pay off in some general market way. Which I suppose it could, if Rock Arena paid them what they were asking, but technically we could sell pretty much any title if it was in stock right now here.
KMG might think they can at some point print DA albums and stick them in Family Bookstores or whatever.. and they will sit and gather dust there because DA fans won't see them generally.
Because of some fubar deal the old manager made, we had to send M8 like 700 Imaginariums (that deal was bad in so many ways) they put them in their Heavy Metal fanzine catalogue and they sold like crap. We eventually bought them back from M8 cheap and sold them all out in short time. They probably came to the conclusion DA stuff doesn't sell, we came to the conclusion they didn't know how to market things correctly... or print them correctly... or master them correctly...
__________________
“Blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account.” Matthew 5:11
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03-12-2008 10:51 |
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jiminy
Tallowy Tamale
Registration Date: 11-16-2002
Posts: 9,494
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you said fubar........ 
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jiMinY
theres nothing to EVER put here that will please everyone-let alone anyone.
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03-12-2008 11:18 |
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jiminy
Tallowy Tamale
Registration Date: 11-16-2002
Posts: 9,494
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only because it probably is (was)
I cringed at some of the very "tame" things that Phil Keaggy had to say about the early days of C Managament..at least with the Rock World you kind of know your getting screwed..
Phil put a lot of "trust" out there..with no return .
I think its better now- at the sad cost to a lot of our favorite older artists.
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jiMinY
theres nothing to EVER put here that will please everyone-let alone anyone.
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03-12-2008 11:21 |
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Audiori J
Administrator
Registration Date: 11-27-2004
Posts: 7,730
Location: "Clowns to the left of me! Jokers to the right! Here I AM stuck in the middle with you." - Stealers Wheel
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From my perspective when it comes to the CCM "industry", there is the assumption that you are working with Christian people who will act Christ-like, that at times is not the case. I don't expect a company/label to do anything other than try and make more money than they spend, that is after all the goal of business. But amazingly you often run into the occassional person who I assume sees dollar signs in their heads and they do some unscrupulous things. And there are the dilusional few that think there is enough money being made to spread around, that you can be careless.
When not a lot of money is coming in, to maximize the investment vs return ratio, you have to invest less obviously. That means, if we can find people willing to help in some way to keep things going that won't charge hideously large rates for their services, thats what we have to do. Often that means personal sacrifice on the part of some in order to get a release out. Thats what makes the people that 'rip off' these artists even more unscrupulous. They techincally rip off the artist, those that are supporting the artist and the fans.
Its why we often turn to 'preorders' even though they suck for everyone involved, it is keeping it all "inhouse". Its just between the fans who want to see the artist continue and the artist. The fans want the music, the artist needs cash to make it. It actually helps to maximize the return to the artist for the time and investment he puts into the project by there being no middleman.
With that, I will say, friends of the artists such as Jeffrey K, Dan Michaels, Gene Eugene, Ojo Taylor, etc are trusted. I don't mean to say that working with a label is always bad, sometimes its great for the guys. But those are situations where the artist knows the label owner more closely.
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“Blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account.” Matthew 5:11
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03-12-2008 11:40 |
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Jerry Davison
Woolly Eggwhisk
Registration Date: 03-30-2005
Posts: 846
Location: Atlanta, GA
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I'm not completely sure how it works but with digital downloads there is little to no up front cost. I'm sure iTunes wants something to sell them but there are no printing costs, no manufacturing costs, no shipping or distribution costs, and people only buy what they want so there is no left over stock to return or sit on, etc. I don't expect our old Frontline stuff to go into print but why can't they make them available digitally? It's a win-win for everyone.
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03-12-2008 11:40 |
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jiminy
Tallowy Tamale
Registration Date: 11-16-2002
Posts: 9,494
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jerry jerry..
you live in Vegas and you dont know the odds yet??
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jiMinY
theres nothing to EVER put here that will please everyone-let alone anyone.
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03-12-2008 11:53 |
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Audiori J
Administrator
Registration Date: 11-27-2004
Posts: 7,730
Location: "Clowns to the left of me! Jokers to the right! Here I AM stuck in the middle with you." - Stealers Wheel
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It depends. Some owners don't want their stuff put out that way. When we did the Alarma bookset one of the owners of one album restricted us on how we could distribute it. I think to some, they see it as deluding the market and if the market is already weak they don't want to do that. If they are hoping for a market boom, or a desire for the album to build so they can take advantage of the best opportunity.. they may not want to have it available that way. People want what they can't get.
When Mark Heard passed away, someone that owns a portion of his albums said 'finally, maybe I can make some money off these abums'. Extremely callous and frankly cold hearted thing to say, but if the guy had invested thousands of dollars of his own money into Mark's albums that didn't sell, in his mind he is thinking Mark's death might generate interest and he can finally get back what he put into them. Much like Keith Green's work which I am betting sold more after he died.
My personal opinion is that if the albums are put out that way (digital download) by KMG the band/Terry will see less money from them than if they can arrange reissues themselves. My personal concern is to get the albums out and make sure the money ends up where it should.
__________________
“Blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account.” Matthew 5:11
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03-12-2008 11:54 |
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audiori
Administrator
Registration Date: 03-12-2002
Posts: 11,145
Location: Missouri
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| quote: |
Originally posted by Audiori J
My personal opinion is that if the albums are put out that way (digital download) by KMG the band/Terry will see less money from them than if they can arrange reissues themselves. |
Even with stuff that a band owns, downloads have been pretty much pointless for some of these bands when they've been done. Some friend bands have put up their entire catalogs as downloads and sell next to nothing from them.. but yet, people will still buy the CDs.
Having said that, there is still a desire to offer some things that way.
__________________
"Blessed is he who expecteth nothing, for he shall enjoy everything" -St. Francis of Assisi
"A strange fanaticism fills our time: the fanatical hatred of morality, especially of Christian morality." - GK Chesterton
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03-12-2008 18:21 |
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Audiori J
Administrator
Registration Date: 11-27-2004
Posts: 7,730
Location: "Clowns to the left of me! Jokers to the right! Here I AM stuck in the middle with you." - Stealers Wheel
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| quote: |
Originally posted by larryl
| quote: |
Originally posted by audiori
| quote: |
Originally posted by Audiori J
My personal opinion is that if the albums are put out that way (digital download) by KMG the band/Terry will see less money from them than if they can arrange reissues themselves. |
Even with stuff that a band owns, downloads have been pretty much pointless for some of these bands when they've been done. Some friend bands have put up their entire catalogs as downloads and sell next to nothing from them.. but yet, people will still buy the CDs.
Having said that, there is still a desire to offer some things that way. |
i was told by a reliable source that pritzl does very well with his digital stuff... |
Yeah, we were told by Mike Roe that when Dan Michaels put up stuff for download it just sat there. So I think it really depends on the particular audience, in DA's case I do believe their audience is not really the young downloadin' kind generally. Imaginarium might do well that way, if Dreamworks was ok with it. We have to get permission every time we print that. There are few that would want DA's stuff download, and I think it would be nice for them, but I don't think it would be a great way to bring in funds.
__________________
“Blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account.” Matthew 5:11
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03-12-2008 20:54 |
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dennis
Ubique Epoque
Registration Date: 09-19-2002
Posts: 13,303
Location: In not-quite earth, in not-quite heaven.
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| quote: |
Originally posted by Audiori J
in DA's case I do believe their audience is not really the young downloadin' kind generally. |
Yeah, on the rare times I have downloaded.
I burn it onto CD right away.
I am not into the whole IPOD thing. 
Don't even own one. 
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I'm talkin' bout the Vinyl , the Holy Vinyl.
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03-12-2008 21:01 |
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jiminy
Tallowy Tamale
Registration Date: 11-16-2002
Posts: 9,494
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well - no one wants to address this..
but I think we all are aware that many many OOP recordings are available on line..did I say many?? - I mean many, many, many, many, many, many.......
I am sure there are some who will pay via an Itunes format...but those who are saavy to downloading MP#s have perhaps already done so-
So to me the release of a HQ piece of media- with artwork similar to the original-and bonus tracks or booklets and extra info is a lot more appealing to this small(er) fan base.
my 2 cents worth (well 7 cents now with inflation)
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jiMinY
theres nothing to EVER put here that will please everyone-let alone anyone.
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03-12-2008 12:25 |
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jiminy
Tallowy Tamale
Registration Date: 11-16-2002
Posts: 9,494
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well - and theres the control factor- as well as more direct involvement (and payment?) to the artists themselves.
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jiMinY
theres nothing to EVER put here that will please everyone-let alone anyone.
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03-12-2008 12:27 |
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Audiori J
Administrator
Registration Date: 11-27-2004
Posts: 7,730
Location: "Clowns to the left of me! Jokers to the right! Here I AM stuck in the middle with you." - Stealers Wheel
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Exactly why we look into doing DVDs, booksets, special packaging and bonus tracks. Terry/DA is in competition with everyone that offers his music for free, as are any other 'struggling artist.'
__________________
“Blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account.” Matthew 5:11
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03-12-2008 12:42 |
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jiminy
Tallowy Tamale
Registration Date: 11-16-2002
Posts: 9,494
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well??
Keep on looking into it!
what you guys put out is great stuff..
preordered or not..
__________________
jiMinY
theres nothing to EVER put here that will please everyone-let alone anyone.
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03-12-2008 14:40 |
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DwDunphy
Ceremonial Kernel
Registration Date: 08-18-2003
Posts: 1,817
Location: Red Bank, New Jersey
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It seems that a lot of my favorite bands now go it alone, either by choice or by force of an unfriendly marketplace. I guess that it is a blessing in disguise with the music industry (no matter what side of it) in such a shambles.
It's sad though that old work ends up being held hostage until, surmising what you said, the artist dies and his "saleability" goes up in memorial proportions.
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03-12-2008 15:22 |
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sondance
Ceremonial Kernel
Registration Date: 05-04-2006
Posts: 1,815
Location: sittin' on the dock of the bay
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| quote: |
Originally posted by DwDunphy
It's sad though that old work ends up being held hostage until, surmising what you said, the artist dies and his "saleability" goes up in memorial proportions. |
so maybe Terry should declare Camarillo is deceased, maybe write up a nice eulogy,
or even more dramatic how about a nice little plane crash that squashes all the little eddies in their beddies?
Terry could be the spokesperson for the families and then when all the cameras are on him he could plug his latest release.
then in an amazing turn of events the Eddies could release a statement they are very much alive and accuse Terry of ripping off their stuff which he would of course deny...
Then he could play Let's Spin backwards, you know the part that sounds like "the eddies are dead, the eddies are dead... except for Berger" and declare them to be imposters usurping the eddies' just deserts... he could call on their faithful public and friends to stock up on all the CDs they can carry so the bad guys don't steal them
i'd buy that DVD...
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Though I have become like a wineskin in the smoke,
I do not forget your statutes.
Psalm 119:83
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03-13-2008 00:05 |
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